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Post by Daffy on Feb 2, 2009 21:32:16 GMT
Did anybody see this tonight ? Waiting for BBC iPlayer to update on the web site so I can post a link if you missed it ?? I only saw the last 5 minutes and was wondering if there will be a 'commotion' about this in your papers tomorrow. See Terry le Sueur was interviewed on the programme.
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Post by Bea on Feb 2, 2009 23:01:47 GMT
Did anybody see this tonight ? Waiting for BBC iPlayer to update on the web site so I can post a link if you missed it ?? I only saw the last 5 minutes and was wondering if there will be a 'commotion' about this in your papers tomorrow. See Terry le Sueur was interviewed on the programme. Yes I saw it .Does not make us look that good. No doubt the spinmasters will be up all night ,gilding the lily,and by tomorrow night,the JEP will have a two page propaganda inspired response People have said that only a matter of time before action will be taken Globally against offshore Tax Juristrictions ,seems like this is the start of it. Obama pledged he would clamp down also .He will need additional revenue to implement the social changes he also has promised. |
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Post by censored on Feb 3, 2009 17:37:02 GMT
It was excellent and showed how tax havens are messing up all the countries affected. The U.S.A. seems to be getting to grips with these issues now hopefully we will see the end of all tax havens as they are sucking the life blood out of the rest of the world and all because the rich and big business think they can do as they please. $255B is lost every year because of tax havens. If $195M of this lost money was applied to getting rid of world poverty in ten years time it would be halved! Makes you think doesn't it?
TLS said Jersey was tax neutral, I strongly disagree as anywhere which stops taxes being paid elsewhere is causing damaging effects regardless of the fact that it is "legal". I am of the opinion that something that gets the same result is the same thing. Therefore I equate tax avoidance and tax evasion as the same as there is no difference in end result. Legality has no bareing on this in my book.
I eagerly await the end of finance in Jersey as I see it as a morally bankrupt thing to participate in. It is embarassing overseas when I mention I come from Jersey as the first thing they say is "oh that tax haven place!" Others view it as a nececcary evil, I don't as nothing justifies the means. Avoiding taxes is a slight against all humanity and should be outlawed as soon as possible as far as I am concerned. As I have said before those with the most pay the most or else the whole tax thing should be done away with to make it a level playing field. We should all participate properly or not at all. Anyway Income Tax was only a temporary measure origionally brought in in the Uk to help pay for the war against Napolean and was to be removed afterwards, funny its still here!
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Post by crappogre on Feb 4, 2009 10:14:34 GMT
Do you honestly believe the UK would magically get more tax income if the CI were 'shut down'? Even if, by some miracle, half the 'secrecy jurisdictions' were, as well? The money would simply flow elsewhere. It's like trying to plug a leaky dam spraying water all over the place with just one cork!
Do you genuinely believe the entire system can be 'cleaned up'? Especially since the people most capable of doing such a thing are the same class of people who benefit from things staying the same?
Can you admit that things will probably never be any different, but without Finance, Jersey would be left totally ****ed? We'd have mass unemployment or an exodus, negative equity, depressions and suicides, acres of abandoned buildings, crumbling roads and boarded up schools and hospital wards, not even enough remaining wealth to make things pretty enough to support tourism. A ghost town island living on whatever handouts we could get, with a few subsistance farmers and everyone else wasting away on drink and drugs, thieving and looting whatever they can to survive.
The tax avoidance or tax evasion - yes I can't really see much difference either - problem? There has to be an easier solution - ways to tax the everyday operations of business directly, rather than chase their big numbers on the accounts sheets and funds that whizz around the global banking system.
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Post by censored on Feb 4, 2009 13:32:05 GMT
The facts are that $255B is syphoned out of the system due to tax avoidance/evasion world wide. In 10 years we could cut poverty by 60-70 percentage with this money.
All places should come on board as it affects everyone except a few very wealthy individuals who benefit massively from these state of affairs. The rest are basically shafted as far as I am concerned.
I am sure the same excuses were used when William Wilberforce wanted to stop slavery yet it happened as it morally wrong to use others like this. I find the legality excuse very flimsy. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right does it?
I hope things change as if they don't we will all reap the benefits of this morally bankrupt society with rising crime more wars, more unrest, economic collapse, environmental collapse, pollution, lack of food and water and mass faminies. Finance is just one of the cogs in this corrupt capitalistic system that doesn't work in reality but people still cling to it as a drowning man does a straw.
Jersey as most of the world is over populated and it cannot sustain this forever something will break. Yes it would be best if finance was largely curtailed and the resultant population spike would go with it leaving the rest with space to live a proper life. These are the facts of overpopulation whether you like it or not. Also you can't have mass unemployment if the majority were to elsewhere in search of jobs can you?
Negative or positive equity is irrelevant most of the time I don't give a **** what my house is worth as it is a home not a treasure chest to be exploited when I feel like it.
Depressions and suicides are rising from what I have seen as people are getting pissed off with all this stupidity of working for a bowl of rice a day in real terms. The faster you turn the tread mill the quicker you burn out.
Most abandoned buildings would be the new builds that would be condemned within a few years due to poor and cheap building to maximise builders profits as far as I am concerned. I have seen many of them they are not going to last the test of time.
Crumbling roads these have been doing so for at least 10 years now so no change there.
Certain hosptial wards have been shut down anyway and less kids means yes some schoolls would go.
Tourism would come back if we had cheap prices again like we had in the 1970's when things weren't run on greed. Jersey survived the Occupation and it will survive the passing of finance remember nothing is forever.
We will have an explosion of drugs and drinking we have it already as the have nots are left high and dry by the rest of society who are solely forcused on their on selves to the detriment of everything else. Burglary will rise as will looting if things become a lot worse under rising prices and taxes over here. Many are now working silly hours for what? Just to survive this is not living it is slavery on the road to nowhere.
The problem with tax avoidance/evasion is that it is making the majority poorer so that the few can cream it and live the life of Riley, if you think this is ok that is your perrogative. I see it as wrong and it will have to be adressed before we reach a revolution. Do you really want another French type revolution with the resultant execution of the upper class (rich) because the rabble are pissed off with them for screwing the system?
The easiest way to sort these problems which are growing daily wordwide is to sort out a global tax regime where no tax avoidance/evasion is tollerated. Do this and things will improve for everyone. We avoid it at our peril, let us hope those in charge see sense before things go too far.
As per money you may or may not agree with what I am going to say but MONEY IS JUST A FIGMENT OF EVERYONE'S IMAGINATION AND HAS NO REAL WORTH ONLY PERCEIVED WORTH. I therefore feel sorry for all those who lust for it to the cost of real things like spiritially. They are on the road to wrack and ruin but they don't realise it yet. The more a person becomes hooked on materialisim the further they become from reality and truth and the more self centred and egotistical they become as they approach the capitalistic ideal of possessions and the accumulation of (worthless) money. These are my own views on things from what I have gleened in over 40 years of studying people and their habits.
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Post by crappogre on Feb 4, 2009 15:26:29 GMT
The facts are that $255B is syphoned out of the system due to tax avoidance/evasion world wide. In 10 years we could cut poverty by 60-70 percentage with this money. I'll just tackle that first sentence for now........ Syphon out?! What, the money goes somewhere else? Some other planet? It just sits there gathering dust? No, the saved wealth gets used, re-invested, spent, and we all benefit from the 'trickle down' effect. It's just that the rich get to use it, rather than a clueless government wasting it. Do you really prefer a hopeless government squandering tax money, funding wars, and creaming off billions in assorted corrupt ways? Do you really think the taxes currently evaded/avoided would actually reach the poor if the governments of the world could actually get their hands on them? With all due respect, your decades of studying human/societal behaviour don't seem to have produced the same results as mine!  |
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Post by censored on Feb 4, 2009 16:02:29 GMT
The fact of the matter is that those with the most are paying next to nothing and this shortfall has to be made up from elsewhere i.e. the middle earners as the poor are unable to contribute much if anything.
Money is thus syphoned out from other countries as they do not have these monies to use on certain things like infrastructure, education etc. If a rich person say in the UK only pays Jersey tax only he is syphoning money from the exchequer as they are not getting what they should. If he does this with his business interests this can add up to large sums of missing money.
The wealth as you rightly put it may be reinvested but this is not the point it is not there to be reinvested it is there to be paid in taxes. You are confusing taxes with investing. I wish I could invest my money for my personal gain instead of paying taxes to the government. Very few invest money to help others they are in it for themselves. This trickle down effect is a red herring in my opinion as the money that should have been paid in taxes will surely outway any put into job creation by the rich and big business. To put it bluntly I prefer to see the colour of the rich peoples' money not illusions of pretending to do good by employing some workers or the odd charitable contribution to help the less well off. This is as you have said before just like putting a cork into a leaky dam and of no real significance in the scheme of things.
Governments are controlled by the rich and big business hence the complete carve up that we have at present. They are not run by the people for the people this is why things are going down hill. Who do you think benefits from government policies? It is to a large extent the rich as they have a massive impact on what governments can do.
Just look at the Jersey government anything to do with the majority is swept under the carpet. Just look at inadequecies in employment legislation, redundancy etc etc. This would not be allowed if it was to affect the rich, however as it is you and me who cares?
You arguement about bad government does not negate the fact that Billions are being immorally syphoned from the pot for the benefit of a small minority.
Unfortunately capitalism has had such a big impact because most are naturally selfish and like to hoard things like money so that they can control others for personal gain. E.g. by running a business and paying minimum wages by using immigrant labour who are desperate for a job and don't cause problems like the locals do. Competition is always used as an excuse to pay the minimum one can get away with instead of thinking about the welfare of their employees they think about maximising profit.
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Post by nelliemacon on Feb 4, 2009 16:28:46 GMT
Well whatever you think about the Finance industry in Jersey one thing this programme showed us was that Terry Le Sueur should never be allowed loose to represent us internationally - he really made Jersey people look like a right load of twits. Even Philip or heaven forbid Alan Maclean would have made a better job of it - have we not learnt any lessons from the Frank Walker public relations fiascos?
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